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	<title>Comments on: Get a warrant if you want my phone bill</title>
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	<link>http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239</link>
	<description>Cutting straight to the point</description>
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		<title>By: GTTofAK</title>
		<link>http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239/comment-page-1#comment-6374</link>
		<dc:creator>GTTofAK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 May 2006 21:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239#comment-6374</guid>
		<description>Andy

SCOTUS ruling &gt; Any statute</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy</p>
<p>SCOTUS ruling &gt; Any statute</p>
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		<title>By: Ben F</title>
		<link>http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239/comment-page-1#comment-5425</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 16:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239#comment-5425</guid>
		<description>wolfwalker--

With its two new GWB-nominated justices, you can&#039;t be suggesting seriously that the newly-announced NSA program would face any difficulty at the Supreme Court. If you doubt that total fealty on War on Terror issues was the core qualification for those posts, I have two words for you: Harriet Miers.

chsw--

Yes, the Clinton Administration was every bit as bad on personal liberties as is the current one. Remember the &quot;Clipper chip&quot;? That was part of the Clinton-era initiative to ensure that the Feds could eavesdrop on all &lt;em&gt;domestic&lt;/em&gt; encrypted communications.

Meryl--

Over two decades ago, I learned in law school that the Europeans were amazed at the lack of data privacy laws in this country. The issues are complex, but the implications are huge. Bruce Schneier writes frequently on the implications of living in a surveillance society; the &quot;future of privacy,&quot; &quot;face recognition in bars,&quot; and &quot;data mining&quot; articles &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0603.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; are all worth a look.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wolfwalker&#8211;</p>
<p>With its two new GWB-nominated justices, you can&#8217;t be suggesting seriously that the newly-announced NSA program would face any difficulty at the Supreme Court. If you doubt that total fealty on War on Terror issues was the core qualification for those posts, I have two words for you: Harriet Miers.</p>
<p>chsw&#8211;</p>
<p>Yes, the Clinton Administration was every bit as bad on personal liberties as is the current one. Remember the &#8220;Clipper chip&#8221;? That was part of the Clinton-era initiative to ensure that the Feds could eavesdrop on all <em>domestic</em> encrypted communications.</p>
<p>Meryl&#8211;</p>
<p>Over two decades ago, I learned in law school that the Europeans were amazed at the lack of data privacy laws in this country. The issues are complex, but the implications are huge. Bruce Schneier writes frequently on the implications of living in a surveillance society; the &#8220;future of privacy,&#8221; &#8220;face recognition in bars,&#8221; and &#8220;data mining&#8221; articles <a href="http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0603.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> are all worth a look.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Vance</title>
		<link>http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239/comment-page-1#comment-5420</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Vance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 15:55:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239#comment-5420</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That doesn’t change that fact that it’s legal.&lt;/i&gt;

No, it isn&#039;t. It&#039;s &lt;i&gt;constitutional&lt;/i&gt; under &lt;i&gt;Smith v. Maryland&lt;/i&gt;. It&#039;s &lt;i&gt;illegal&lt;/i&gt; under the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00003121----000-.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Pen Register Statute&lt;/a&gt; and the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002702----000-.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Stored Communications Act&lt;/a&gt;. 

And it&#039;s &lt;i&gt;unconstitutional&lt;/i&gt; for the Executive to ignore these statutes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>That doesn’t change that fact that it’s legal.</i></p>
<p>No, it isn&#8217;t. It&#8217;s <i>constitutional</i> under <i>Smith v. Maryland</i>. It&#8217;s <i>illegal</i> under the <a href="http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00003121----000-.html" rel="nofollow">Pen Register Statute</a> and the <a href="http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002702----000-.html" rel="nofollow">Stored Communications Act</a>. </p>
<p>And it&#8217;s <i>unconstitutional</i> for the Executive to ignore these statutes.</p>
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		<title>By: wolfwalker</title>
		<link>http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239/comment-page-1#comment-5418</link>
		<dc:creator>wolfwalker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 14:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239#comment-5418</guid>
		<description>&quot;It is still a fishing expedition, and my phone records don’t belong on that flowchart.&quot;

I agree.  Neither do mine.  That doesn&#039;t change that fact that it&#039;s legal.  Well, at least that it&#039;s legal until a federal court says it isn&#039;t.  The SCOTUS decision &lt;i&gt;Smith v. Maryland&lt;/i&gt; said that cops can get phone records without a warrant.  Some states have outlawed this by state law or via the right to privacy that&#039;s in most state constitutions.  Others have not.  In any case the controlling authority for feds is the federal courts.  

Whether or not it &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt; be legal is another matter entirely.  &lt;i&gt;Smith v. Maryland&lt;/i&gt; was about a single individual and a single phone line, and said nothing about anything on the scale of the NSA program.  And at least part of the rationale behind it was that calling out was basically similar to asking an operator to connect to a specific phone number.  There&#039;s obviously no expectation of privacy there.  But today the whole process is automated.  Presented with a test case like this, SCOTUS might rule differently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It is still a fishing expedition, and my phone records don’t belong on that flowchart.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree.  Neither do mine.  That doesn&#8217;t change that fact that it&#8217;s legal.  Well, at least that it&#8217;s legal until a federal court says it isn&#8217;t.  The SCOTUS decision <i>Smith v. Maryland</i> said that cops can get phone records without a warrant.  Some states have outlawed this by state law or via the right to privacy that&#8217;s in most state constitutions.  Others have not.  In any case the controlling authority for feds is the federal courts.  </p>
<p>Whether or not it <i>should</i> be legal is another matter entirely.  <i>Smith v. Maryland</i> was about a single individual and a single phone line, and said nothing about anything on the scale of the NSA program.  And at least part of the rationale behind it was that calling out was basically similar to asking an operator to connect to a specific phone number.  There&#8217;s obviously no expectation of privacy there.  But today the whole process is automated.  Presented with a test case like this, SCOTUS might rule differently.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Vance</title>
		<link>http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239/comment-page-1#comment-5416</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Vance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 14:10:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239#comment-5416</guid>
		<description>Geoff Stone of Chicago Law &lt;a href=&quot;http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/faculty/2006/03/nsa_surveillanc.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;explains&lt;/a&gt; why it&#039;s not such a good idea to give the guvmint push-button access to your phone and e-mail records:
&lt;blockquote&gt;With good reason, we shouldn’t trust the government to care only about criminal acts. Once the government can gather all sorts of other information about you (for example, who your friends are, what books you read, what petitions you’ve signed, who you sleep with), it then has the capacity to use that information against you in all sorts of ways that have nothing to do with catching terrorists. Certainly, we’ve seen this throughout history. Information is power, and power can (and usually will) be abused. Suppose you have to consider that every act, every phone call, every email is permanently preserved in government computers and thus accessible even many years from now to those officials who will decide whether to hire you for a government job, oppose you for elective office, admit you or your child to a public university, or audit your taxes. Might this have an effect on your conduct and conversations?&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoff Stone of Chicago Law <a href="http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/faculty/2006/03/nsa_surveillanc.html" rel="nofollow">explains</a> why it&#8217;s not such a good idea to give the guvmint push-button access to your phone and e-mail records:</p>
<blockquote><p>With good reason, we shouldn’t trust the government to care only about criminal acts. Once the government can gather all sorts of other information about you (for example, who your friends are, what books you read, what petitions you’ve signed, who you sleep with), it then has the capacity to use that information against you in all sorts of ways that have nothing to do with catching terrorists. Certainly, we’ve seen this throughout history. Information is power, and power can (and usually will) be abused. Suppose you have to consider that every act, every phone call, every email is permanently preserved in government computers and thus accessible even many years from now to those officials who will decide whether to hire you for a government job, oppose you for elective office, admit you or your child to a public university, or audit your taxes. Might this have an effect on your conduct and conversations?</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: chsw</title>
		<link>http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239/comment-page-1#comment-5414</link>
		<dc:creator>chsw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 13:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239#comment-5414</guid>
		<description>I just read in the NY Sun that the current version of this NSA program has been in place since 1994, and that the Senate has been briefed on a regular basis since that time.  Chalk up a positive point for the Clinton Administration for getting this program off the ground, even if they didn&#039;t know how to use it.  However, when any of the Packodumbs or Jackasses object, remember that both parties overwhelmingly passed the program, and that they have known what&#039;s been happening since the start.

chsw</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just read in the NY Sun that the current version of this NSA program has been in place since 1994, and that the Senate has been briefed on a regular basis since that time.  Chalk up a positive point for the Clinton Administration for getting this program off the ground, even if they didn&#8217;t know how to use it.  However, when any of the Packodumbs or Jackasses object, remember that both parties overwhelmingly passed the program, and that they have known what&#8217;s been happening since the start.</p>
<p>chsw</p>
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		<title>By: Meryl Yourish</title>
		<link>http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239/comment-page-1#comment-5413</link>
		<dc:creator>Meryl Yourish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 12:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239#comment-5413</guid>
		<description>It is still a fishing expedition, and my phone records don&#039;t belong on that flowchart.

I would think that getting a warrant to keep track of suspicious persons&#039; phone records would be far more useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is still a fishing expedition, and my phone records don&#8217;t belong on that flowchart.</p>
<p>I would think that getting a warrant to keep track of suspicious persons&#8217; phone records would be far more useful.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239/comment-page-1#comment-5407</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 03:36:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239#comment-5407</guid>
		<description>Allow a technical (i.e. boring) explanation of what NSA is (may be) doing.  I spent almost 17 years at a three letter agency as both a telephone and computer tech as well as time in specialty areas.
	The data bases the phone companies in question handed over to the NSA are used for internal company use such as billing, planning for expansion, equipment upgrades and the like.   Per. WolfWalker’s observation these files are not protected information.  The data files may have been used (hey, I’m rusty. I’ve been selling herbs, crystals and oils for 4 years) like this:
	A specific number is entered into the data base and a tree is formed.  Think the old commercial: you call 2 friends and they call 2 friends …  The original number is “of interest” to NSA because it may have been found on a laptop in Afghanistan, an address book from Hamburg or just your local mosque’s phone number.  The idea is to create a family tree of related numbers that are connected with the original number.  Once a tree is established the limbs may be either pruned or more closely examined.  The calls to the local Pizza Hut most likely pruned.  The call to Detroit imam gets attention.  Call to hillel meat store some where in between.
	The result is a glorified flow chart that analysts (bureaucrats who want to be Jack Ryan) use to see if A in NYC has any connection with B in Detroit or C in Madrid.  If a solid connection is made then they go for a warrant to listen in on conversations.  Given that there are hundreds of millions of phone numbers in the US alone I doubt if more than 1% are ever looked at by the NSA.  Those that are looked at have at least some connection to the original number “of interest.”
	I warned you this would be boring.  
The fact Qwest Communications has refused to share data means the bad guys will now use phones, cells, faxes and computers based in Qwest’s service area.  That is not boring.  Just depressing and maddening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Allow a technical (i.e. boring) explanation of what NSA is (may be) doing.  I spent almost 17 years at a three letter agency as both a telephone and computer tech as well as time in specialty areas.<br />
	The data bases the phone companies in question handed over to the NSA are used for internal company use such as billing, planning for expansion, equipment upgrades and the like.   Per. WolfWalker’s observation these files are not protected information.  The data files may have been used (hey, I’m rusty. I’ve been selling herbs, crystals and oils for 4 years) like this:<br />
	A specific number is entered into the data base and a tree is formed.  Think the old commercial: you call 2 friends and they call 2 friends …  The original number is “of interest” to NSA because it may have been found on a laptop in Afghanistan, an address book from Hamburg or just your local mosque’s phone number.  The idea is to create a family tree of related numbers that are connected with the original number.  Once a tree is established the limbs may be either pruned or more closely examined.  The calls to the local Pizza Hut most likely pruned.  The call to Detroit imam gets attention.  Call to hillel meat store some where in between.<br />
	The result is a glorified flow chart that analysts (bureaucrats who want to be Jack Ryan) use to see if A in NYC has any connection with B in Detroit or C in Madrid.  If a solid connection is made then they go for a warrant to listen in on conversations.  Given that there are hundreds of millions of phone numbers in the US alone I doubt if more than 1% are ever looked at by the NSA.  Those that are looked at have at least some connection to the original number “of interest.”<br />
	I warned you this would be boring.<br />
The fact Qwest Communications has refused to share data means the bad guys will now use phones, cells, faxes and computers based in Qwest’s service area.  That is not boring.  Just depressing and maddening.</p>
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		<title>By: chsw</title>
		<link>http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239/comment-page-1#comment-5406</link>
		<dc:creator>chsw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 03:10:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239#comment-5406</guid>
		<description>Wolfwalker is right.  So, when NSA finds that Abdul the Afghan al-Qaeda calls Idris, Isa and Muammar in Danville, the NSA would also want to know if Idris, Isa and Muammar also talk with each other, if they are all relatives or not, and whether the jobs they do give them opportunities for criminality or terrorism.  However, Abdul may also call Pejman, Suleyman and Mehmet and they may have absolutely no connection to any nefarious purposes whatsoever.  That is what is driving everyone crazy - the possibility of being innocently caught up in a web cast on an acquaintance.

chsw</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wolfwalker is right.  So, when NSA finds that Abdul the Afghan al-Qaeda calls Idris, Isa and Muammar in Danville, the NSA would also want to know if Idris, Isa and Muammar also talk with each other, if they are all relatives or not, and whether the jobs they do give them opportunities for criminality or terrorism.  However, Abdul may also call Pejman, Suleyman and Mehmet and they may have absolutely no connection to any nefarious purposes whatsoever.  That is what is driving everyone crazy &#8211; the possibility of being innocently caught up in a web cast on an acquaintance.</p>
<p>chsw</p>
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		<title>By: wolfwalker</title>
		<link>http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239/comment-page-1#comment-5400</link>
		<dc:creator>wolfwalker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 01:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourish.com/2006/05/11/1239#comment-5400</guid>
		<description>I get nervous any time the government engages in major data collecting.  I don&#039;t trust &#039;em any farther than I can throw &#039;em, and the fact that the goal here is one I agree with (preventing terrorism) doesn&#039;t change that.  The watchers need to be watched.

That said, there&#039;s a legal issue here that needs resolving.  As I understand it, there&#039;s a difference between a wiretap and the phone records that NSA has been collecting.  A wiretap is an invasion of privacy and requires a warrant.  But records of what calls were made to and from a specific number (the data NSA is collecting) are not private.  That data is held by a third party (the phone company) and so there is no expectation of privacy.  Local police agencies get phone records without a warrant all the time.  So what NSA is doing may in fact be legal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I get nervous any time the government engages in major data collecting.  I don&#8217;t trust &#8216;em any farther than I can throw &#8216;em, and the fact that the goal here is one I agree with (preventing terrorism) doesn&#8217;t change that.  The watchers need to be watched.</p>
<p>That said, there&#8217;s a legal issue here that needs resolving.  As I understand it, there&#8217;s a difference between a wiretap and the phone records that NSA has been collecting.  A wiretap is an invasion of privacy and requires a warrant.  But records of what calls were made to and from a specific number (the data NSA is collecting) are not private.  That data is held by a third party (the phone company) and so there is no expectation of privacy.  Local police agencies get phone records without a warrant all the time.  So what NSA is doing may in fact be legal.</p>
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